I’ve been looking into psychology a bit in my spare time, and of course one cannot leave out Freud in such a study. Although far less influential today than he was in the mid 20th century, Freud, by reputation and accomplishment, still stands over most others like a giant in the field. Therefore, I was somewhat amused and surprised to find that his views concerning some of his most fervent supporters – American women in particular – were far from favorable.
The following quote is especially revealing:
“American women are an anti-cultural phenomenon. They have nothing but conceit to make up for their sense of uselessness. You have a real rule of women in America. You young men go to college with girls, fall in love and marry at an age when the girls are usually much more mature than the men. They lead the men around by the nose, make fools of them, and the result is matriarchy. That is why marriage is so unsuccessful in America — that is why your divorce rate is so high. Your average American man approaches marriage without any experience at all. You wouldn’t expect a person to step up to an orchestra and play first fiddle without some training, but the American man steps into marriage without the least experience for so complicated a business. In Europe, things are different. Men take the lead. That is as it should be.”
–Sigmund Freud, 1934
In “Sigmund Freud” by Helen Walker Puner
Interesting, isn’t it, that the same issues we face now on a far larger scale were already considered a problem back in the early 20th century? I’ve been thinking about rereading Hemingway, that notorious masculinist of the Lost Generation, to get a better idea of what American men were going through at the time.
17 responses so far ↓
1 ganttsquarry // Aug 12, 2009 at 9:39 am
I am always amused when I read some philosopher or cultural critic from 50 to 100 years ago on their unfavorable views of American women. If I recall, Mencken had some famous quotes along these lines for example. I rarely think of women from 70 years ago poorly. A personal bias as a result of my grandmothers I suppose. Of course, the situation we find ourselves in, didn’t happen overnight, the seeds were planted long ago. Imagine what Freud would think of today’s modern shrike.
2 Savvy // Aug 12, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Hmmm. the land of the free, the home of the brave?
My family was still in Spain at this time.
3 novaseeker // Aug 12, 2009 at 3:47 pm
Interesting find.
I expect that, as gantt says, the seeds of the current dysfunction go quite a bit further back than 1960.
4 Welmer // Aug 12, 2009 at 5:37 pm
You’re a Spaniard, Savvy?
Hmm, not bad.
Lukobe, do you remember Carmen? She was Catalan, right? I so regret those lost opportunities now. But you know, it’s never too late, and I’m still relatively young.
Hell, even my 87-year-old widower grandpa is still hooking up with old flames (seriously). He came over here with another flyer for Seafair — an 89-year-old guy who was a Navy ace in WWII and participated in the Marianas Turkey Shoot.
They got into an argument over Pappy Boyington, the Sioux ace who flew with the Flying Tigers. My grandpa insisted that he was an arrogant jerk and a drunk (this is true), and so must have been an Irishman (despite the fact that my grandpa is part Irish himself). His friend and I argued and proved that Pappy (a UW grad) was actually an Indian.
Can you believe that some stupid UW students (feminists) tried to kill Pappy’s memorial on campus because they said something like: “a US marine doesn’t represent our school and philosophy”?
Shameless little ignoramuses.
5 Ovid // Aug 12, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Yes,the seeds of what I like to call “female-ism” go back quite a ways.Back to the beginning in fact.Although it doesnt go back that far,you might find interesting this excerpt from Eric Dingwall’s The American Woman.
6 Pro-Male/Anti-Feminist Tech // Aug 12, 2009 at 7:17 pm
I’m not surprised by this at all. Women have been crazy for ever.
My only question is why is this limited to American women? Women are the same everywhere and crazy everywhere.
7 novaseeker // Aug 12, 2009 at 8:34 pm
Anglo culture pedestalized women to an inordinate degree during the Victorian era, and when you combine that with the rising feminist movement you get the result we see today. The anglosphere is much, much worse in this regard than most other even Western countries are.
8 Justin // Aug 12, 2009 at 8:43 pm
In my study of jokes (ok, it’s not really a study, I just like joke books), I find that humor about the henpecked husband is seemingly an American tradition. I know jokes of that variety were around in the 40′s and 50′s at least. It would be a cool study to see when they began.
9 miles // Aug 12, 2009 at 9:47 pm
Man there is one area where American women seem to be sadly lacking, and that is their willingness to keep from getting so damned fat.
I bet I encountered ten facially very cute women just TODAY, that were all at least 40 lbs overweight. This turns men off more effectively than a blast of cold water from a hose pipe directed at his genitals. Why on earth do all of these cute gals let themselves become hogs with pretty faces? I see em’ all the time.
10 Lukobe // Aug 12, 2009 at 10:37 pm
Yes, Carmen. And her sister Patricia. Both (of course) Catalan. Don’t get me started on lost opportunities.
11 ganttsquarry // Aug 12, 2009 at 11:07 pm
Miles,
A few thoughts on that…
A tubby girl with a cute face can still get plenty of guys to give her attention. A 25 year old fatty that is say a 3 or 4 on the looks rating can get a 6 and even a 7 guy to pump and dump them.
Since at a young age these cute(relatively) heftys aren’t looking to settle down and marry right away; they can delude themselves into thinking their weight isn’t much of a problem because of the attention they recieve. All they have to do is get one of these guys to “commit” at some point. Of course, that is easier said then done.
Weight loss is hard, especially with the poor diet that Americans consume. Dulusion is much easier, especially for a girl that lacks a strong drive or work ethic.
I think this mentality is found more frequently in lower middle class to poor women. I don’t see nearly as many fatties in the upper middle class, to upper class single 20 somethings. I’m sure HBD has something to do with this, but I also think that the higher class gals have a better understanding of status, and the importance of knowing how to grab the best mate possible. Tough competition keeps you on your toes as well.
You would be amazed at how much male attention a decent in the face fatty can get. To her its quantity and not quality. It quenches her need for attention and approval. Plenty of middling sex starved betas will even pedestal these cows, if only momentarily.
Heck some of these women have no problem getting married either. Ever notice those 10 couples? The guy is skinny and the woman is a big blob. Just like a 10.
American women’s collective muffin top is subsidized by all of the sex starved betas. Until that stops; the sea of cottage cheese will continue unabated.
With that said, I feel your pain.
12 Lukobe // Aug 12, 2009 at 11:45 pm
BTW, ganttsquarry, yes — I don’t tend to think of American women of that era that way either, though I am probably thinking of my grandmother and aunt, both of whom were born in Eastern Europe. “Uselessness” — I don’t know exactly what Freud means by that. By what standard? They did have to run households back then, and what about those who had farms, and who labored.. I don’t know.
13 ganttsquarry // Aug 13, 2009 at 12:26 am
Yeah its funny Lukobe
Both sets of my grandparents were very traditional. The men worked and the women ran the household. The gender roles, at least for them were clearly defined. My grandmothers were exactly the kind of women it takes to build a strong civilization. I respect them immensely.
I suppose by the standards of other cultures and societies, our men are a soft touch though. Clearly something is lacking when you can be married to a certain type of woman, and have a grand daughter that might as well of come from another planet. American men seem to be very naive with regard to their daughters.
I suspect one problem is that they pedestal them too much. So with each generation the entitlement grows. Daughters are never taught to control their natures like sons are. Men are taught from day one; the need to control their temper, violent tendencies and sexual urges. The daughters are sugar and spice and everything nice.
Like Nova said I’m sure this has Victorian roots. I want to flesh out this idea of father daughter relationships more specificly, as a significant contributing factor. I haven’t really thought about it enough to know how much weight to give it.
14 Savvy // Aug 13, 2009 at 12:27 am
True Spaniards freaking hate Angles and Saxons. Not a fan of Muslums either after all the havoc in Spain. They come peacefully and then with a sword. Ohhhh we have to be PC! My bad. Sorry.
As far as fattys go, men are doing pretty damn good job of keeping up. TWe’re ALL overmedicated and half of the meds cause serious weight gain.
15 Lukobe // Aug 13, 2009 at 1:43 am
Ah, the Muslims occupied Spain, the Spaniards occupied North Africa (they still have a few toeholds there) — let’s just call it even
I think the Jews were better off before the Reconquista, though.
16 skeptical_guy // Aug 31, 2009 at 1:09 pm
Lukobe- African warlords occupied a Spain and some other surrounding areas for many years which is why there were many moors in Europe (and how such stories such as Othello came about). Let’s not be one-sided here.
The problem with Western cultures is that whenever you put a gender, race, etc. on a pedestal you’ll see other grabbing for the same opportunities they perceive those others to have. So the practice of social structures such as ‘supremacy’ and/or ‘upper class’ and/or any other dividing force that guarantees a comfortable lifestyle is not only outdated but also self destructive.
17 bob // Sep 30, 2009 at 8:51 pm
verification of this quote
http://books.google.com/books?id=386tCTzeb28C&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=In+%E2%80%9CSigmund+Freud%E2%80%9D+by+Helen+Walker+Puner&source=bl&ots=JRotpYfCGC&sig=CbgrBPl0L8pcPy2KARTSnwAJ01k&hl=en&ei=kSbESpyzDYfS8QbN84xJ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=and%20the%20result%20is%20matriarchy&f=false
Leave a Comment